A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
American Catholics have been closely following the back-and-forth between President Trump and Pope Leo. Among them is Father James Martin, a Jesuit priest and author who called Trump's attack on the pope, quote, "unhinged, uncharitable and unchristian." Father Martin is with us now. Father, President Trump called the pope weak on crime and terrible for foreign policy. Why would that strike you as unchristian?
JAMES MARTIN: Well, first of all, it's very personal. But also, it's making the pope out to be like a mayor or a governor. I mean, weak on crime makes no sense. And as far as foreign policy, you know, the Vatican has been dealing with political leaders and military leaders since at least the time of Charlemagne. I mean, they know what they're doing. And, you know, as your reporter was saying, the pope is weighing in from the perspective of the Gospels. And the Gospels ask us - you know, Jesus asks us in the Gospels to be peacemakers, and that's exactly what the pope is doing.
MARTÍNEZ: Would there be a more Christian way to voice disagreement with the pope or criticize the pope?
MARTIN: Yeah. I think you can say, I disagree with the Holy Father on these matters, but I respect who he is and what he's trying to do, something like that. But that is not what happened the other night. It was a complete sort of personal and, you know, as I said, unhinged attack on the pope.
MARTÍNEZ: Now, short of an apology, which doesn't appear to be coming from the president, do you think it's possible for there to be a reconciliation between the two?
MARTIN: Well, the pope is always open to talking to anyone, and he has his papal ambassador - also called the nuncio - in Washington, who is his representative. And again, you know, the Vatican has relationships with all sorts of leaders that they may not agree with. So, you know, my sense was the pope was very open to, you know, conversation and a relationship with the United States. And he's not closing off any doors. He's the one who's, you know, keeping the door open.
MARTÍNEZ: Could you imagine a meeting between the two at any point?
MARTIN: I could.
MARTÍNEZ: (Laughter).
MARTIN: I'm not sure when it's going to happen. You know, as I said, generally, the Vatican deals with, you know, governments through their ambassadors. But sure, at some point. Yeah, the pope is a very open-minded, kind, friendly person, and I think he'd be, you know, at some point, open to meeting with the president.
MARTÍNEZ: Maybe they can go to a White Sox game together.
MARTIN: Perhaps.
MARTÍNEZ: Perhaps, yeah. Now, the pope has really emphasized peace in the year since his election nearly a year ago. And the administration maintains that it is trying to keep peace by blocking Iran's nuclear capabilities. Father, if this war is indeed what the administration claims it is - a war to prevent more war - is that something Catholics should support?
MARTIN: Well, that goes to the question of just war. But more importantly, I'd like to remember what St. John Paul II said, which is war is always a defeat for humanity. And so what the pope is trying to do is to remind people, you know, that war, particularly for the poor and those who are, you know, sort of on the front lines and the - you know, people who are, you know, suffering violence, you know, as a result. These are the people that we have to be paying attention to. So the pope is, again, relentlessly focused on peacemaking. Jesus said, blessed are the peacemakers. And his message to the disciples after the resurrection was peace be with you, not, you know, vengeance is mine. So the popes have always been trying to force people or encourage people, at least, to the - you know, sort of the bargaining table and to work for peace.
MARTÍNEZ: Mentioned earlier how American Catholics are paying attention to this back-and-forth between President Trump and Pope Leo. How do you think the president's attacks on the pope affect Catholics in the United States?
MARTIN: My sense was that pretty much every Catholic I spoke to from progressive Catholics to traditional Catholics were appalled. And, you know, in a sense, the pope is, you know, the representative of the whole church, so it's an attack on the church.
MARTÍNEZ: That is Father James Martin, a Jesuit priest and author. His new memoir is called "Work In Progress." Father Martin, thank you very much.
MARTIN: My pleasure.
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